I see your point of the contradiction in logic… but honestly, I don’t see the man leading while not having an outcome as contradictory.[/quote]

Well my friend, then where are you leading too?

I mean if one is to lead, then one must have a destination in mind.

[quote]To me, the essence of being man is to really pursue what you love. The outcome is never guaranteed. It’s really about following thru on your intent.[/quote]

Intent- the state of a person’s mind that directs his or her actions toward a specific object.

‘Specific object’ and ‘outcome’ are synonyms.

[quote]So when I see a woman I like, I make sure I “lead” and take the necessary steps to give the interaction a direction… and an intent so that she knows I’m in it for romantic purposes.[/quote]

Ok. So you’re saying that once you express your interest in a woman for romantic purposes, you are expecting her to take the lead?

[quote]But I don’t need to “close” the girl. By setting the tone of the interaction, by showing her my intent through my behaviors, she knows what she’s in for.[/quote]

How exactly do you ‘lead’ her to ‘what she’s in for’ if you have no outcome in mind?

[quote]For me, most guys need an outcome to understand the step-by-step logic of meeting women… but the reality is… you don’t need the outcome if you understand the process.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying with this.

Question? Do you wear a condom when you have sex with a strange woman? You know, to prevent a possible ‘outcome’?

[quote]If you go through the process, most of the time, the outcome happen just fine… but as long as you stick to doing the process, you won’t feel bad about whether or not you closed the girl or not.[/quote]

I’m a firm believer in learning to enjoy the journey, which is what I think you’re trying to say.

But then this would sort of be like trying to take a trip someplace, but not knowing where you’re trying to go.

[quote]You did what you had to do to be true to your own romantic intent. If she likes it, things will happen.[/quote]

Interesting points Ken. And I agree with much of that. Things may happen, things may not. It often depends upon the actions you take, or not.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve failed to ‘close’ and found out later the woman thought I wasn’t interested (I’m not ugly or fat). I mean getting a number is simply a bridge to a future meeting or outcome. Otherwise it’s meaningless numbers.

I think where we part company with all this is on our definition of ‘closing’.

It’s nothing more than a sales term meant to denote completing the ‘sale’.

And after all, that’s exactly what we are doing. Attempting to sell ourselves to women, and particularly that young lady standing before us.

Then the question becomes, where exactly are we trying to take her?

I see your point of the contradiction in logic… but honestly, I don’t see the man leading while not having an outcome as contradictory.

To me, the essence of being man is to really pursue what you love. The outcome is never guaranteed. It’s really about following thru on your intent.

So when I see a woman I like, I make sure I “lead” and take the necessary steps to give the interaction a direction… and an intent so that she knows I’m in it for romantic purposes.

But I don’t need to “close” the girl. By setting the tone of the interaction, by showing her my intent through my behaviors, she knows what she’s in for.

For me, most guys need an outcome to understand the step-by-step logic of meeting women… but the reality is… you don’t need the outcome if you understand the process.

If you go through the process, most of the time, the outcome happen just fine… but as long as you stick to doing the process, you won’t feel bad about whether or not you closed the girl or not.

You did what you had to do to be true to your own romantic intent. If she likes it, things will happen.

Particularly the one about hesitation, as it regards closing/escalation. LOL

Admittedly, we can be contradictory at times. But if you pay attention, you will know when the time is right! Women love feeling desired–they may interpret tentative behavior as “he doesn’t really want me.” So, go for it! If you misjudged her and it doesn’t turn out the way you expected, then, what the hell? You took a risk and got some excellent feedback. Good for you! Work those triceps patting yourself on the back.

That being said, I believe we are always attracting the “right” people to us by virtue of who we are and how we feel about ourselves at any given moment. There are no “missed” opportunities, because if an opportunity is missed, we weren’t ready for it.

Clearly some things and people are not going to work out for various reasons. Many of them not of our choosing. But then, nothing ventured, nothing gained. And that is the essence of attempting to close or escalate.

Closing is a skill that’s an absolute requirement not only in seduction, but in building a successful social or professional network itself.

I thought the ‘door’ analogy was sort of juvenile. It has nothing to do with closing a door. It has everything to do with leading interactions to future meetings or to their climax whatever they may be.

And sex just happens.. LOL

It happens because some guy had the balls to pursue the possible outcome. The same can be said for 90% of all romantic interactions between the sexes. And I think Dave covers this well in his material when he’s addressing confidence.

If you doubt that premise as a man, I want to adopt the attitude that most women have that ‘sex just happens’ then go out, and tell me how often you find it happening. Very simply it wont. You will simply find yourself surrounded by a bunch of pissed off women wondering why you’re gay, impotent, weak or something. LOL

And that my friends is the ultimate Contradictio in terminis.

There is no failure, only feedback.

Not sure I understand what she’s implying..

That men should not attempt to close women, or that we should defer to the woman for signals that we should close?

Bizarre rational to say the least.

I can’t say how many opportunities I’ve missed by waiting for a woman’s signal that she’s ‘interested’.

Younger, more sexually attractive women in most cases are not this self assured. They will simply make themselves available for a man’s escalation. And if the man doesn’t do so, then that opportunity is often ‘Gone with the Wind’.

No faster way to end up in the friend, creep or other unsavory category than to fail to frame an interaction with a woman then escalate/close depending upon the social context.

Furthermore, unfortunately in this culture it is the man’s duty and responsibility to be the leader in any interaction/relationship. This requires one to be goal oriented. This is the conundrum and an oxymoron for us guys. Because often this means that to be successful, we must both pursue ‘the goal’ but act as though there is ‘no’ goal with a particular woman. Clearly this is incongruence at its finest.

Of course we must have a goal. Otherwise, what’s the purpose of the interaction in the first place. Only from a woman’s perspective could a man both pursue an outcome and not have an outcome in mind at the same time.

And that’s why I’m glad I’m married to a wonderful woman. And one that hasn’t been polluted by such bizarre chick-logic.

I remember a couple of weeks ago i mentioned something about giving out some fantasy football advice since your so in to it. I don’t know if your getting into the fantasy football side, but will be anxious to hear your predictions on Sunday. Guess they kind of go hand in hand anyway.

Looking forward to it!