I was just on the phone with a really good friend of mine, and we were having a really funny conversation about his relationship. He’s dating someone who says to him, “I don’t care if you have female friends, but I don’t want you making an new female friends.”
As we got into the conversation, I started thinking about my life. I started thinking about in which times of my life I have made friends with my female friends.
Many times, I made new female friends when I was single. That would often happen when I was single and dating, because I’d become friends with women I was meeting that I really liked as people but with whom I didn’t feel any chemistry. I didn’t become friends with those women out of any kind of sexual desire for them.
Thinking about the women I became friends with while I’ve been in relationships, however, is something very different. If my relationships weren’t going well, I tended to find women friends to whom I was attracted.
So, I started looking a little deeper into this, and I started to realize that maybe my friend’s girlfriend has a valid point. She truly believes that if you’re in a relationship and are still collecting friends of the opposite sex, then it means that you are still out there trying to “sew your wild oats” . . . just in a different way. It’s a way to cheat emotionally.
I can understand her thinking, because I’ve dated four women who were just my friend when I met them. I ended up dating every one of those four women with whom I was “just friends” when we met.
I have to tell you. I had chemistry with each and every one of those four women right from the get-go, and I know they felt that same chemistry since they continued to pursue the so-called friendship.
Whether I didn’t actually end up dating them until a year later or two years later doesn’t matter. I am kind of in agreement with my friend’s girlfriend and her take on the issue of men and women being friends.
If you’re not satisfied in your relationship or you’re spending a lot of time with someone of the opposite sex, you’re not just bumping into women you think are really cool. Can you imagine your lover telling you this: “I was in Whole Foods today, and I ran into this great girl I want to be friends with. We just had so much in common. We were talking about which kind of breakfast cereal is the best, and I just really think she would be a great friend. I want you to meet her.”
So, the girl meets this new would-be female friend and of course she’s a knockout. Come on guys, let’s get real. You’re only friends with women with whom you want to have sex.
If you’re not happy in your relationship and you’re finding new females with whom to be friends, it’s only a matter of time before you start cheating and having sex with one of them. Women do the same thing.
Stop being in denial ladies. Women do this exact same thing. You have a boyfriend who is not satisfying you, and all of a sudden you’ll meet a great guy and become friends with him. It’s only a matter of time before that chemistry is exposed and the sex starts.
I think anyone who is denying that all of this is true is delusional, and I think my friend’s girlfriend may have a valid point here. The man or women who goes out and finds new opposite sex friends, is someone who tends to feel like something is missing in their relationship. You guys think about this.
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12:44 pm
I’ve heard it before. Many times. But, my take on it is that’s being VERY possessive of your SO to not want you to have friends of the opposite sex while in a relationship (or marriage, even). Completely unacceptable in my book. No wonder people stray! How, exactly can a SO be everything to a person. They can’t! Loose leash, I say. They only do it if there’s something missing in a relationship. It’s trust that’s missing in one that doesn’t allow opposite sex friends, in my opinion.
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1:09 pm
You’re completely right on this, David. I’ve been in a solid relationship for a long time. I’m a relatively friendly person and I’m active in the community, so I meet a ton of people. My partner is a bit less social. What I’ve found is that it works so much better when my new male friends quickly meet my SO and become “family” friends. They’re not always interested in that, of course, and those become friendships that I don’t encourage. There’s no question that sometimes there’s an attraction between me and men I meet — and it oftentimes points to something I may unconsciously feel is lacking at that given instant in my relationship. On the other hand, sometimes I recognize that when I find myself being attracted to someone else that I’m admiring something about them that I can go on and develop in myself.
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1:45 pm
I disagree. But I already know I’m quite different. I value all of the friendships I have, man or woman.
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1:48 pm
I have to completely disagree on this one. It implies that meeting new people regardless of sex has to change because you now are in a relationship. This is a control issue and insecurity issue from the one in the relationship that is against you meeting new people of the opposite sex, why on earth should you stop making friends because you are seeing one. Wether they are pretty or not got nothing to do with it, unless you have chosen to take the paranoid glasses on and makes up these stories what the person might be thinking or doing in the future because they are making new friends of the opposite sex. Besides the nonsense in the fact that it’s ok with existing friends of the opposite sex is just silly as those friendship as easily could be turned into a person of interest.
It’s all how you choose to live your life and what thoughts you allow into your mind. The question is do you really want to be with a guy if you think that new opposite sex friends is a no no as those might lead to a detour. Shows an already mistrust and fine if that is the way you have chosen to live your life.
It’s not about being delusional, but rather if you are not wasting your time with someone if you have to put these rules on the other person.
It really is jealousy in it’s beginning stages and it’s an ugly little monster lurking around and this is one of the ways it’s showing up. But each to their own but you can’t say you are not jealous and at the same time put these limitations on the other party.
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2:01 pm
Ok A movie…
Tell me why you disagree.
I know this will be interesting
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2:02 pm
MArina
I can agree with you on some points.
But deep down when a man is excited about his new female friend and cant stop thinking about them there is something deeper.
Same with women
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2:04 pm
Imsatime
Look deeper into this. We are not talking friends we are talking about new friends that they are all excited about.
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2:04 pm
Kay
Thanks………for the input.
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2:13 pm
I’ve been in a committed relationship for over a year. I recently went through a situation where I became friends with a man who is also in a committed relationship, yet we admitted we were attracted to each other. This really put me to the test, and I had to be 100% honest with myself about what I felt was missing in my relationship with my SO. David is so right about how men and women often cheat emotionally. This is very dangerous, in my experience. Although it isn’t physical, it is only a matter of time before it gets there. Awesome podcast David!
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2:19 pm
Okay, considering it has been a while since I was even in a relationship, forgive me if I speak from theory and not from practice.
When I was less confident about myself, I was always worried and anxious about the women I was around, friends or casual encounters alike. I kept thinking that the friend I was with “could” one day be a relationship person and then I would think that it couldn’t be possible because there was a friendship to protect. So, like you said, when you are single and trying to be friends with a woman you weren’t attracted to then that was fine for you. And if you were friends with a woman you were attracted to -David- you persued her as a relationship and not as a friend, since you felt the attraction.
About four years ago, when I started to improve who I was a person and started focusing on being a more positive person one of the things I had to do was evaluate my sense of self. I used to be very hard on my self (I still am, but now I am doing things to correct that like reading David’s blog) and I asked myself what was the one thing I was the most upset about from my previous experiences? And the number one thing that kept coming up was that I became very good at being friends with a woman and she would start showing some interest for a relationship, I would go through a very intense period of self sabotage and I would go out of my way to destroy the friendship instead of facing my fears, which was what was really going on.
So, upon reflection I had to ask myself why I was mad at losing these people in my life. And the answer was that I was too insecure about my relationships and how I viewed them to even keep a normal friendship and that sucked. I have lost a lot of really cool people in my life because I got mad at myself for not being the best I could be in a relationship. And I don’t want to do that anymore. That is why I said I value my friendships more than I do my relationships. Sometimes I just tried to be someone’s friend and she was the one who got scared because she was the one who thought she wanted a relationship but since I wasn’t offering she wanted to push me away. That is not fair to either of us.
My point is, as I move forward in my life and take on new and exciting things that haven’t happened before I made a resolve to work on being a better friend to people (and I still suck at doing that too). Since I have had this change in my head occuring, I can only give you howI think I would feel, and I don’t have an example from my own experiences but what do you think about this?
If it is a fear that a woman has about a man being friends with another woman, that is one thing, because I am not her and I don’t have her lifetime of experiences to draw from to ask her why that is. But if it is me she is accusing and it is me that is in a relationship with her, I would like to think that I am with her because I enjoy who she is and if that spark is gone, then I would hope I would have the courage to tell her instead of starting to hang out with beautiful young women to validate my own sense of self. The life I have had has made me realize how valuable my word is to my self and if the person I am with does not value that as much as I do, then maybe I’m not meant to be with that person.
Jealousy is what you are asking about. As a man, and especially in the industry I am in, it is good business to be friendly with a wide variety of people. I want to be able to be friendly and helpful and supportive of new people I meet, men or women, without worrying that the guilt facotr is in play for the person I am with. And if I am not comfortable with the partner I am with, I would hope I have the strength to tell her how I feel instead of holding ego court in with another person’s basketball. That’s not fair to the person who I am trying to be friends with. It’s not fair to the woman that I am “lovers” with, which is really just another type of friendship. And it would not be fair to me.
This is a modern world dominated by sexual images and feelings. Sure there is a lot of attraction and a lot of cheating and a lot of lying. I just don’t want to join that group. So its either stay alone or start looking for someone who understands that in me and is not threatened by it.
Is that a good response David?
Mike
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2:20 pm
Jaybiz
I have been there so I totally get it!
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2:25 pm
I don’t get “excited” about anyone anymore. That’s not me. I had it slowly leeched out of my system from years of hating who I was and anxiety over not feeling attractive to the people I felt attracted to. It’s not worth it. I judge everyone the same when I first meet them. And as I get to know them, usually who they are as a person is more than enough to keep me excited about who they are.
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2:35 pm
I realized my guy friend was looking for a way out of his current relationship (and still is), and is basically trying to “monkey-bar” into a new one, possibly with an ex. He asked me what he should do because he is so stressed out and unhappy with his SO and my advice was to embrace the single life! And do a lot of introspection too:) I’m definitely going to tell him about this blog, David because he needs to hear it!
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2:54 pm
Mike,
Don’t think I’m trying to be harsh with you but have you ever considered stopping thinking about how you want to be for others?
I read your long post and all I see is… you want to be a good friend for people… b/c you were a bad friend…
And then I read you HOPE you have the courage to tell a woman you aren’t attracted to her anymore.
STOP already! You think so much about everything!
The only thing you should focus more on… is be good to YOURSELF. Do more of the things YOU want… Let other people react to you because of how awesome you are and stop second guessing yourself.
You don’t HAVE to be a good friend to anyone. You HAVE to be a good friend to yourself. Once you do that, people will respect you more and the friendship relationship will work itself out.
You can create the relationships you want… without jealousy by really creating a strong relationship with yourself.
You’ve met David. You’ve met me. Attraction is your mirror. Look at yourself more, focus on yourself more.
For once…. be selfish.
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2:56 pm
I’ll give you an example, like Jaybiz, but I was not in a relationship at the time.
There was this really cute girl, about 24, living in the building across from me. She was in a relationship when we became friends. I never thought of her as someone I wanted to date or be intamite with. We spent time together. We would run errands together and sure enough she started feeling attracted to me. I just let her. I didn’t care. I was happy being her friend and I valued that. Well, as soon as she started having feelings for me it got a little weird, for her, not for me, because like Jaybiz said, she was trying to figure out why she was feeling for me besides a phermonal reaction.
Forget the fact that when you get to know me, you would understand how loyal I am to my friends. She just started to get attracted to me and would find reasons to spend more time with me. Did she say anything to me? No. She waited for me to make more of a move. So what did I do? I could tell she was getting attracted so I told her about my personal history and why I wasn’t looking for a relationship and this was at a time when I was still trying to feel comfortable about my own appearance and said that I felt too insecure to be in a relationship and enjoyed being her friend and besides, as I also told her, she was in a relationship and I didn’t want to be the person who caused them to split, especially if I was not capable of taking on the relationship duties she had come to expect from the guy she was with. And he was just some cheesy male model type who was full of himself and didn’t make her feel good about what she liked to express herself with, which was her music. As a friend, and artist, I always try and encourage people to not let their fears stop them from persuing her art and every time I talked to her I mentioned that. Is that me being more attentive to draw out the attraction? No, that wasn’t what I wanted to do. Was that me being more present in the moment? Yes, it was. But I was present to be her friend.
So what did she do? She came up with a lame excuse about why she couldn’t hang out anymore and escaped from my life even though we still live across the street from each other. She had developed feelings for me that I told her I wouldn’t reciprocate and because she had her own fears and her own problems, instead of opening up and sharing them with me, which I would have happily done, she decided that she would feel safer not being my friend.
AND THAT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!! And is not fair to me. I wanted to be her friend. Not her new boyfriend. Why is that a thing that has to be something in between men and women when really it should be a feeling that the person has with themself and they should work on it on their own or with the help of a friend.
So yeah, I disagree. Men and women in relationships can definitely cultivate friendships even with people they think they are physically attracted to because it gets even harder to deal with when you are emotionally or spiritually attracted.
That is what I am trying to avoid.
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2:59 pm
I’m not a selfish person, that is part of who I am. And at this moment, I don’t really see the need to change that. But thanks Khiem, you know I always love your advice. David asked is why I wrote a long response. If you read it a little closer, you see that I am moving beyond that.
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3:11 pm
But David if you meet a new person and have those feeling is that no a sure sign that something is missing in your life. But saying to someone you can’t meet new opposite sex friends is just plainly jealousy in it’s purest form. It’s about not accepting the person you are with and wanting to change the person after you are going steady.
I lived with a jealous person that did not see why I would have male friends and saw that you only should have female and meet female friends. It limits who you are and show you don’t trust the person you are with and it really is very suffocating and I would never allow myself to get into such a relationship again. I puts you in so many situations where you can’t just be your friendly self as it can be misunderstood by you partner. My husband had an amazing easy time to get people excited about him both women and men and constantly he meet new people. I just never were jealous as that was the same quality I loved about him when we just started to date.
This whole dilemma really boils down to not trusting and assuming things about another person and quite honestly I don’t want to live that way. You can’t make some one love you nor “keep” them loving you it’s not a force issues it’s constantly changes and evolves. You just can’t put all these rules on your partner and truly expect you committed unconditionally to each other. Maybe your friends girlfriend should ask herself if she really trust her boyfriend and if that is true love when you have to limit each other. Personally I find a relationships should add not take away, otherwise I see no reason to be with someone.
Long rant, but you really hit me on a very personal subject.
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3:11 pm
You know Mike… why couldn’t you be her friend even more by helping her out of her fears and insecurities?
And I know you claimed you weren’t ready for relationship duties… but you are trying to apply yourself to what she feels are her expectations of a relationship.
But you being you… your role as her b/f would be different as her model b/f. You would bring a different experience to her if you were to become her boyfriend.
You don’t have to abide by any set of rules or expectations… you just have to live according to your own rules… dictated by what you want in that moment.
If she understood you enough to fall for you… she could have understood your delicate position when it comes to your emotional needs… and how you were trying to get comfortable with your image… and who knows… she’d have wanted to support you in that… just as you support her in her exploration of music.
What do you think?
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3:21 pm
It’s an old example. The pattern is already set and we have both moved on. Makes sense though Khiem. But I can’t do much if the person in question doesn’t want you around anymore. I can’t force someone to hang out with me. I have other opportunities in my life so I’m not too worried about the past. Just trying to share with the blog group.
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3:22 pm
Mike,
Maybe she just was upset that she was rejected by you. A lot of girls would be furious about being rejected especially if they are used to be able to get what they want.
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3:27 pm
Khiem,
Know this was for mike but this quote. You don’t have to abide by any set of rules or expectations… you just have to live according to your own rules… dictated by what you want in that moment.
that is very selfish if thats the way you live your life. I did when I meet my future husband, he was married and because I acted by what I wanted in that moment then I broken another woman and family. Maybe I was supposed to be with my husband, but not while he was with his wife. Mike is right in rejecting her for reasons that she already was in a relationship. It about our actions, when we with knowledge go ahead and do things we know will cause pain for another, that is very destructive not just to ourselves but also others.
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3:31 pm
what I want in my “moments” right now is to finish the damn script I have been working on for close to 2 years. I put a silly block up (before I realized what David was teaching, I’m a slow learner but when I do learn something new, I am usually quite brilliant at it). The block was that I was going to self-evaluate myself until I was done this project and then I was going to go out and implement the new knowldege I was cultivating. It’s a long story. Read the book when I publish it. And I know you and David will both tell me that its just an excuse, and I know that already. But I am committed to diving in to a new lifestyle once I don’t have the negative energy of this script weighing me down and there is a lot of it in this material.
You’ve heard of “method actors”. Well guess what. The best writers out there that work on other people’s stories are method writers. I took on the values, the methods, and the beliefs of the person I am writing for and that allowed me better inner access to the person I was and what I wanted to change. If I didn’t work on this story, I would have found another way. However, for me, it was easier to help identify the things that I had been creating that were prohibiting me frm enjoying my life by contrasting my life against the back drop of the person that I am writing for.
So, once the script is done (and that might be another couple of months at the long end of the spectrum) I will be going out and working on the real world applications of the things I have been thinking about for the last two years.
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3:32 pm
Marina,
I don’t want you to take my quote out of context. I do take into consideration other people’s feelings and situations… but the mistake most people make is to put other people’s feelings ahead of theirs.
I’ve met Mike… and this is why each advice I give is very personal and geared to that individual. Mike has a tendency not to think about his needs. He has a tendency to put others ahead of him because he doesn’t feel attractive.
For him… he needs to learn to have a healthy dose of selfishness. You need a balance in life. You don’t want to be TOO selfish, yet not TOO giving… but for him, it’s a necessary step and that’s why I told him what I told him.
A lot of times, we limit ourselves by putting others ahead of us… sometimes, you can act upon your own rules but you want to give the opportunity for the other person to say yes/no to you. You can’t cut yourself short and put yourself out of the game before the game even begins.
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3:33 pm
My point for Mike was simple… I understand she was in a relationship… but if you know she’s not happy. You don’t have to be the one who breaks her relationship but you can be the one who shows her that she has a choice… and she could choose someone else if she wants to… even if that someone else COULD be you/him.
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3:34 pm
Marina and Khiem.
I did act out of my own self and what I wanted. But what I want is different from what most “normal” guys think they want. I am very good at being selfish. But to be truly selfish, you have to respect other people. I could have been weak and bent to her needs at the time, which probably could have been an offer to let her talk more in depth about her feelings (actually, I am pretty sure I did offer that too). She wanted something else. I didn’t want what she wanted. Isn’t that being selfish?
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3:37 pm
Mike,
I think you did well on that scenario you gave us. I just wanted to give an alternative “ending” if you wanted to work out a relationship with her. You did say at the beginning that you were attracted to her… but that you only pursued the friendship because she was attached.
I wanted to show you that if you were honest with your feelings of liking her for more than friends… that you COULD entertain that possibility if you wanted to… by following through on your intent but giving her the opportunity to say no if she was truly in a good relationship.
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3:40 pm
Khiem,
Ok, but Mike did not put himself out of the game before time, the told her no and she wanted something else. Personally I should not have pursued my husband at the time, and have paid for it ever since.
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3:40 pm
I did tell her she had a choice about who she wanted to be with. She stayed with the guy she was with because of family pressure and they had created a business together that she couldn’t walk away from. I don’t want to tell you her whole story but I am sure it was not an easy choice for her to make, especially when she started feeling very attracted to me. I just wish she would have wanted to still be friends. But like Marina said, if she didn’t get what she was looking for, maybe it was easier for her to stay in her suffering mentality. Any Russians out there? What is it with Russians and their cultural obsession with stoicism? I was trying to use an old example about today’s blog topic. but I should be working or napping so I’m going to jump off the blog for a while. Thank you Khiem and Marina for talking to me.
And don’t forget. I have gotten really good at noticing, honoring and being happy with the changes I have made. I just make slower changes than most because I have a big pile of history to clear out and discard. David likes to say it only takes a month to change a behavior inside of you. Well, when I started this journey, I had about a 100 months to work out who I wanted to become to be a happier person who could still challenge himself artistcally and that is very important to me.
Once I work through that, relationships will be easier for me to have fun with. Damn script. It’s an excuse but it is such a good excuse I am going to stick with it. If it goes on for another year, then maybe I can think about doing something different.
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3:43 pm
I can see David’s point here, but what are we saying here to the SINGLE people? That there is no true friendships with members of the opposite sex if the person of the opposite sex is in a relationship???
That just seems so … depressing … to me. I am single, and have a LOT of strictly platonic male friends. I would hate to think that if I met a great guy with whom I connect on a friend level (just as I would if I met a woman I connected with on a friend level), that either (a) that man would not befriend me if he didn’t find me attractive OR (b) that man would only befriend me if he was attracted to me and secretly wanted to have sex with me.
I would give more credit to men (and, I guess also to women) who are in healthy relationships that they can have friends of both genders without there being something untoward about the motivations on either party’s part.
Are we saying to single people that if you meet someone of the opposite sex that we CAN’T have them as a friend??? That would be a sad statement indeed……..
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3:43 pm
Khiem, yeah I agree. But this example was from before I met you and David. Oh well.
I occassionaly run in to her and she still gives me huge hugs and wants to know everything that is going on. So, who knows. In the future, if she loses the model guy, perhaps I would be more in to her then. No sense in speculating.
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3:46 pm
Tammy,
I am with you, there are guys and girls out there who does not suffer from these insecurities, and would fully “allow” you to continue to get new friends regardless of sex or looks.
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4:05 pm
Tammy,
I don’t think that David is saying men can’t be friends with women… but while in relationship… if a man is ACTIVELY trying to make friends with NEW women, it may be an indicator that he’s not happy in his relationship.
In that specific scenario, it’s very true that men are looking to make friends with women they find attractive.
And honestly, I DO try to make friends with women I’m attracted to… It doesn’t mean I’m attracted to them in a sexual manner… but I’m attracted to them because they are great women. The difference is.. when I’m in a healthy relationship, i don’t actively try to spend time with them because I’m happy with my g/f.
But any of the friends that I have could turn into something more. It’s acknowledging in your life that you should surround yourself with people you truly like and enjoy
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5:20 pm
Once again David bang on target! man you’ve learned so much and thanks for sharing with us
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7:00 pm
Dave sounds drunk, anyone agree?
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7:16 pm
Chuck
That would be impossible….I dont drink.
Maybe you were drunk when you listened to me:)
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9:00 pm
wow this blog is getting hot! gotta love all the comments!
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9:03 pm
Chuck- I have known David for years, and never have I seen him drunk:)
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9:03 pm
Chuck- are you crazy or what???? what makes you think he is drunk LOL
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9:04 pm
Pete-I like how you said, once again David bang on target:)
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9:05 pm
Hey Coach Ken- how are you doing:0
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9:07 pm
It make sense to me. I have always wondered about this topic of having female friends on the side without any sexual tension. I think it depends on the person as well, if the man or woman is a cheater, they will always find a way to cheat!
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9:10 pm
I have to say I am guilty of cheating, and to be complety honest with you guys since this blog is about friends, I am still cheating on my girlfriend. Good thing I don’t have my real name on here.
Any advice for me, can i be honest with my girlfriend what is going on behind her back?
It took me a lot of courage to say this but don’t hate me for it, please advice!
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9:11 pm
DonJuan- how long you been cheating on her for?!
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9:11 pm
It’s been 6 months.
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9:12 pm
Only time i cheat on my girl was in the past but it was a one time thing, and she found out, and broke up with me. I learned my lesson though!
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9:13 pm
Donjuan- I believe in Karma, if you cheat on her, and she doesn’t know about it, this will come and hunt you near future.
I wish i knew how to help you but, i am not sure which route you can take.
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9:14 pm
oh this is getting better.
Donjuan- are you serious about this story or you are just making this up?
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9:14 pm
I am serious Jimmi- and why would I lie?
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9:15 pm
I think if she loves you, you are going to really hurt her feelings.
I would like to hear what the ladies here has to say……
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9:16 pm
Donjuan-
You don’t have to tell her b/c it will break your relationship and i would suggest if you really like her you stop doing all the cheating behind her back!
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9:17 pm
Like Jimmi said, if you are honest you might really hurt her feelings especially if she really likes you or loves you!
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9:18 pm
I know this is not a good thing, but i’m confused as hell!!!!!1
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9:20 pm
Get a fuckin life DonJuan!!!!
Stop cheating with these women, it’s all your personal choice!
Man like you should go to hell!
I am sick and tried of meeting guys like you in the past!
Plus nice name it says it all about your intention.
Oh baby don’t pretend like you don’t know what you are doing.
Get to the fuckin point, you have been cheating with her for 6 months asshole. I hate man like you, fuckin coward!!!!!
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9:21 pm
Jimmi-
You are right the blog is getting more interesting by each minute:)
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9:23 pm
DonJuan-
The question is what is making you cheat on your girlfriend?
what are you missing at home?
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9:24 pm
I don’t want this blog to be all about me!
However I am missing the physical chemistry at home, the spark is gone!
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9:25 pm
Question- where did you meet the second woman?
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9:25 pm
howe- that’s kind of personal!
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9:26 pm
I see why you are doing this, its because you are missing sex at home, then why not communicate that with her????
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9:27 pm
Is the second woman first was your friend before you decided to cheat on your girlfriend?
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9:28 pm
Yea were friends until she was the one who started seducing me, and I couldn’t resist, it’s temptation. If I could go back, I would totally change my situation, and never have done it!
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9:30 pm
Very interesting blog indeed today, it started with friends, now its ending with friends with benefits or cheating LOL
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9:30 pm
To the guy who thinks Dave is drunk while doing the podcast, you gotta be fuckin retarded:)
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11:08 pm
Sarah
Calling the Don out.
I like the brutal honesty!!
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12:19 am
Hey guys,
Looks like I gotta take Marina’s side on this one, 100%
A great relationship should give me a sense of freedom, not a sense of isolation.
I really love meeting people. To the point that I think it’s what can bring meaning to an otherwise dismal day. Striking up a connection with the person serving me coffee, male or female, is a really great feeling. Our interactions are the story of life, unfolding.
Being in a relationship under these terms, David, would force me to place a filter on my life. Not only would it make me unhappy, I’d feel like I was suffocating. For me, such a relationship wouldn’t last a week.
You’ve let the cat out of the bag with one of the most controversial topics of all. But I think overall, this line of thought is bad WITH THE EXCEPTION if you’re MARRIED, she is LIVING with you and you have KIDS with the person.
If that’s the case, your full attention should be on your family, absolutely.
Otherwise, and this is just my line of reasoning, any relationship should have an OPEN-AIR quality about it. Unless you are serious at this point in your life about “settling down”, I don’t even think it’s a good idea to move in with the opposite sex, like so many do.
Maybe I’m part northern Californian here, but if a girl I am seeing gets a connection going with another guy, I don’t feel any less attracted, I don’t feel jealous and I don’t feel the need to rope her in. If she’s SNEAKING around, I feel betrayed. But if the terms are already on the table, such as; “Live your life and be free, but don’t sleep with anyone else” then it’s not an issue.
But if your goals in life are settling down, the terms could be more like: “Let’s see if we can make this into a long-term relationship with marriage and kids a potential outcome someday, and give each other full exclusive attention” then what David’s suggesting makes more sense. But if that’s the case, prepare to cut off your outside social interactions–time to stop going to clubs and parties, stop chatting up that waitress and stop accepting new FaceBook invites from girls–because if you continue your life the same way as before, with the “contract” overshadowing your day-to-day interactions, it may grow into frustration… and eventually resentment.
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1:23 am
I’d also like to mention, David, as a long time “shadow reader”, this is the first time I’ve seriously disagreed with anything you’ve written. And the only thing I disagree with is your clarity. You’re describing one type of relationship, in this case the committed, settled-down, long-term, exclusive relationship–which is perfectly OK if that’s what you want in life, whereby it’s usually best to give each other undivided attention.
Heck, a long-time female friend of mine recently got married. I purposefully cut off ties with her because I knew she had a particular weakness toward me, and I did not want it to interrupt her emotional investment with her marriage. Do I care about her and love her? Absolutely, but I don’t want to be in contact with her every-day (just a few emails a year will suffice).
There is a purpose (perhaps evolutionary) behind this level of commitment: the stronger the commitment to the marriage, the stronger the family. A marriage cannot have weak foundations. A human mind cannot be in more than one place at once (probably because we’re stuck in these flesh-bags…) therefore we cannot give complete, loving attention to more than one mate and expect the same level of strength. Without the strong foundation, children will be reared without the right solidarity.
And when children are raised with parents who are emotionally divided among different people, the family structure is at risk.
Which actually endangers society as a whole.
So being emotionally exclusive and not having outside influence in a relationship makes sense, and is necessary in this situation.
But this is only if you are settling down that you must be weary of the natural bonds that arise with meeting the opposite sex (or same sex, if you swing that way). This is the same reason I don’t think it’s right for swingers or people in “polyamorous” marriages to have kids. It’s just not right for kids to grow up around that stuff. Don’t get me wrong though, I’ve read instances where it appears to have worked, but it’s very risky.
And let’s forget this rubbish about “not meeting new friends” but “staying friends with existing friends”. That’s all becoming very confusing. All these terms of social hierarchy is really man-made, social / cultural nonsense. Everybody has attraction to each other. Everybody has feelings toward each other. There’s no such thing as “just friends”. There’s no such thing as “just a relationship”, either. Humans are sliding scales of emotions and feelings, but I digress. My point is that if you are entering exclusive-territory, you must keep everyone at arms-length so that the familial bonds of the relationship are not threatened.
On the flipside, if you are NOT entering this ‘zone’; then there’s no logical reason to sign such a tough contract that limits your experiences and human interactions. My belief is it will merely lead to resentments which could damage what should otherwise be unconditional love.
Finally, how do you know if you are in ‘the zone’ of emotional exclusivity? I’d say all of the following should apply:
* You are living together
* You have discussed the possibility of children
* You are married / engaged / or have discussed future plans for marriage.
* Mutual desire has been expressed for the relationship to last indefinitely (because if the possibility of marriage / children / family is on the table, and the romantic relationship is not expected to end, then it is inevitable a family will eventually arise).
Otherwise, don’t sign your life away with an exclusivity contract. If you’re doing it because you’re concerned with such myths as “she’s the only girl / boy in the universe” or “if I let him / her know other people, he / she will me” then there are DIFFERENT problems you have to work out INTERNALLY before hooking up with ANYBODY.
And that’s all I’ve got to say about this topic. Au revoir!
Cyrus
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1:59 am
Cyrus
I was married and I still would never tell my husband such a thing as to what kind of friends he could have. It really boils down to trust and accepting your partner unconditionally. No reason
why that should change with marriage and kids.
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2:04 am
DonJuan
Don’t use the spark is gone and some how justify to yourself it’s ok in your mind. What you are doing is awful. You should either break up or tell her. There is no easy way out .
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7:32 am
Sarah- your comment comes off kind of mean i think!
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7:33 am
What experiences did you go through that made you so mad?
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10:16 am
So I’ve put mike-ro so you know I’m that 18′year old from Romania who comented in the last few posts.
Recently I’ve been having a problem and it goes like this. Even if I’m in a relationship or not, most of the time I’m having this flirty,goofy, funny atitude but, it’s on instinct.And you know what?People started acusing me of this. Oh mike you go too far and stuff like that. I mean I’m flirting witouth even knowing it.
I’ve had guys who got mad at me because they thought I was interested in they’re girlfriends but I was just nice and beeing my normal self.
I’m not always like that but when I’m full of energy and happy, yeah I tend to flirt with every girl. Is that really a problem? Some girls complained to me that I should have a limit.
But that means…should I try to change my personality?Should I care that girls who have boyfriend tend to like me? Or when I know that the girl I’m talking to is dating someone I should have a special atitude? Really I’m so confused!
HELP A.S.A.P! I don’t want people to see me as an ass but I think that it’s good to have this personality. What do you guys think?
maybe I can have an aswer here? I’m 18 what’s the best thing for me now?
Oh an David , I saw you enjoyed the facebook movie on youtube
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10:37 am
The correct phrase is “sow your wild oats.” Not “sew.”
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11:09 am
I just wanted to say thank you to cyrus I don’t think I could ever hear a better explanation of relationships than that.
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11:14 am
I agree Cyrus- that was well said!
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12:16 pm
Hey Jimmi,
I’m doing well! And geez… I step out for the rest of the evening and I come back to a lot of comments!!!
Don Juan,
If the spark is gone… why do you stay with your g/f and decide to see the other one? Why don’t you just break up with the current girlfriend and go with the new one? It’s about being honest with yourself… if something is not working out for you, let her go.
Now… on the other hand, what makes you stay with your g/f and why won’t you commit to the new one?
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2:33 pm
Man! The emotions that come with meeting a new friend or a friend in need is so undeniable. I am guilty of cheating with a “female friend” who was in a relationship the thing she needed at the time….attention. It’s kinda hard but I will say NO to having friends of the opposite sex while in a relationship. UNLESS, you guys know/hang out together, and have a great relationship that is built on trust and most importantly communication.
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3:51 pm
I think it all depends on what ou mean by the word “friend.” I have a lot of male aquaintences but when I have a significant other he is my best friend. He is the one man I confide in and allow myself to be vunerable with. I also confide in my girlfriends and am able to reach a level of vunerablity with them, but it wouldn’t be appropriate to do this with a man who wasn’t commited to me in some respect.
I do have one male friend — who is actually a n exboyfriend — who knows me deeply. This is partially because of the amoutn of time we have known each other (16 years) and the experiences we have had together (he was my first kiss and we had to suffer through a friend’s suicide). The thing is, although he is a great friend I don’t spend time alone with him when I have a man.
It is like asking for temptation. In fact, I don’t spend time in private with men who aren’t my significant other or in the running for the job. And I have never cheated on anyone. Not because I’m just that righteous and strong, no. It’s because I have never given myself the opportunity.
Maybe Rob Reiner was wrong and men and women can be friends — but not close, emotionally intimate friends — not without a When Harry Met Sally happening.
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8:34 pm
I recently asked a girl out I had a lot in common with, and she turned me down. I patched things up with her since and we’re friends, but if I got serious with another girl I would probably break it off. Too much there. I think it’s weird that someone would say “no new girl friends” like you aren’t more likely to cheat with someone you have a history with, but I would say if you have to ask yourself the question at all, don’t pass go or collect $200. You can be friends with someone, but not “just friends.” That’s asking for trouble.
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9:21 pm
Khiem or someone, could you answer my problem? I have flirting problems and by that I flirt on instinct with any girl that I feel atracted too. Even dough they are dating someone but at my age(18, I’m the last Mike that comented these last few days) what harm can I do? Is it my problem that other guys can’t keep the girls to themselves? I mean do I have a problem? Should I have a special atitude twards them if I know they’re dating someone? Is it wrong to be friendly and interested with someone it they date who knows what guy? Of course at first friends but after, it there’s chemestry and we like each other… Need an advice.I’ve read the other comments but those don’t quite apply to me. Look the thing is, should I care that those guys don’t like me when I do that?
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10:02 pm
Mike-Ro
I think I kinda understand your question. I would say No you should not feel guilty or bad about flirting with women that belong to someone else in my opinion. It has been my experience that women love men who assert themselves and are not afraid to be bold. Some women look at this as fun, because most guys are afraid to flirt with women so they treat them as if they are fragile. Only if the girl is a gf of a good guy friend of yours would I draw the line. But you would have to assess in your mind how good of a friend that person is.
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1:31 am
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I’ve asked some other people the same question and they said I should but with a limit. Nobody cound answer where should that limit be. Where should it? I mean if the girl responds to me in the same maner, maybe she’s into me too right?
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1:56 am
Mike, if you are a flirty guy, you can flirt with as many women as you are… but you got to be considerate of your relationship.
You have to know your boundaries and only YOU know what is right for YOU!
I am a flirty guy… but I don’t flirt hardcore when I have a girlfriend. I also don’t flirt hard when I know I could be misleading someone. I don’t flirt at all if I know the girl might fall for me and I don’t feel for her like that.
Do I flirt with girls… just for fun… yes! But my g/f is OK with that…
You have to ask yourself why do you flirt? Do you flirt to escape the fact that you don’t like your g/f anymore and are looking for something new?
Or do you flirt because you are a guy who’s fun loving.
As far as flirting with girls who are attached… I flirt with everyone… but I do so to make people feel good. I don’t flirt with the intent of “coming on” to people. Now, assuming I’m single, based on how she reacts… I gather information on her relationship and I make my own judgement call if it’s “right” for me to pursue her or not.
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4:58 am
Khiem as usual you light up my day
)
You asked me two questions. I flirt because of both of them. First of all I like my girlfriend but recently she is pushing me away beeing very gelous (considering she is moving for good from my town in 4 days) and very paranoic although I haven’t cheated on her. And you know what’s weird?she hasn’t been this way the entire relationship. It was like you said, I flirted before and she was ok with it we even laughed at the ‘responses’ I got. And yeah based on all that’s happened recently I am searching for something new.
I asked my girlfriend what does fun loving mean. Answer? “Something like you”.
)
And the second thing ,if I understand the expresion right, yeah. I am a charismatic person. Like my girlfriend says:”I have soul” and she translated that by telling me that I can live up a party, I can make people talk and be happy, my eyes glitter and make people happy.Yes it’s true, some people like me,some dislike me, but as I’ve learned, I shoudn’t give a damn. You get what I mean?
So to answer that question, I flirt because of both.
The real problem is , at my age I really can’t say what is best for me
.
Again Khiem , I’m very grateful! When you come to Romania tell me and I’ll make it even
. Cheers!
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10:46 am
DonJuan, Marina it’s not the thing of being friends, it’s the thing of being friends in secret….that’s when the cheating begins. You’re not being honest with yourself or your girlfriend. It appears you want your “cake & eat it too” I’m with the person that called you out! You broke the exclusivity rule. What if she did that to you, how would you feel? You can’t be trusted. You will cheat again until you get yourself straightened out. You have something lacking in your character. I don’t care if you aren’t getting sex at home you need to talk to her. The “spark” as you call it is as much your responsibility as it is hers, you didn’t even give her a chance you just decided on your own “that it is her fault” when you probably have been treating her differently. Sneaking around behind her back, maybe picking up some kind of sexually transmitted disease…no woman wants that THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I think you are being selfish and immature. I hate guys like you too!
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11:02 am
Jeffrey,
I think Sarah was right on. How many guys I have listened to when their g/f or wife cheated on them. They’re hurt deeply as well. Some recover some don’t. It makes dating these kind of men very difficult. Their trust issues with women are even deeper scars than you can imagine. Women on the other hand are more forgiving, but we get hurt deeply too. Don’t give me the crap of “it was just sex” give me a break…. we’re not stupid. Gullible sometimes maybe, because we want to give our guy the benefit of the doubt, but then some guys just are cheats, period because they don’t want to do the work to get themselves better. I don’t feel that Sarah was cruel….she hit the nail on the head, I have heard guys say the same thing about cheating women. Get your head out of the sand!
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11:10 am
Patti
not sure I was mentioned with Donjuan. Have a great one
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6:07 pm
Marina,
Yes I did mention you with DonJuan. If you have male friends behind your husband’s back it will be just a matter of time you would cheat on him. Not only if a man will cheat on his wife to go with you, you can almost bet that he will cheat on you. He has a character flaw along with being immature. Why would one want to break up someone’s marriage? One probably only heard his side of the issue anyway. You don’t know what his wife might have already been through with him. Yes we all have our problems and I know that you cannot make someone love you, it’s a choice, but I’m with a.movie…I wouldn’t want that on my head. Just dating single men is hard enough with all their fears and idiosyncrasies. Now factor in a woman that will go out with a man knowing that he’s married. Hmmmm? Would you want that done to you? What is everyone trying to keep “one in-the-hole” just in case their relationship fails? Yes I have a few guy friends, but I’m not married. I believe and hope that if I do ever marry again that my new man in my life would be my best friend and I hope that he would feel the same way. I feel that a marriage should be a commitment, however I do understand that commitments in marriage just mean for the now for some. Truly a sad situation, we cannot control other people, we can only control ourselves, it’s called self-control (what a concept, huh)? Therefore I think things would be better if we as adults (that is if you are one) should not have “one-in-the-hole, it can only spell disaster for your current relationship, unless that’s the way you like it. My question to you is can you trust yourself? Are you a trustworthy person in and of your own right? I’m not against opposite sex friendship’s just the ones your SO doesn’t tell you about or vice versa, you know and they know in the back of their mind that one would like to cheat on one’s SO with them, when one becomes “a friend” with them on the sly. I know that even in mutual friendships in a relationship a man or woman can still stray, but again it’s a choice, no one made them do it. One wants to blame someone else and not stand up and take responsibility. One doesn’t want to discuss the problems they are having in their relationship and want to keep the “blame game” going. One will never have a healthy relationship if this wheel keeps churning. Own up to your mistakes and choose not to repeat it. Be it to yourself, God or your mate.
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6:27 pm
Jimmi, Rick,
If DonJuan continues on this path he will definitely lose his g/f maybe that’s what he really wants to do but doesn’t have the balls to tell her he wants to break up with her. Either way her feelings are going to be damaged. If he breaks up with her she will heal eventually and hopefully. Men like DonJuan never know what they want they think they are God’s gift to women. Not so, men like DonJuan are scumbags. He is just keeping her “stuck” in a relationship that he doesn’t care about and doesn’t want her to move forward. If she wants to forgive him and continue in the relationship provided he doesn’t do it again then I would applaud her. If she kicks his stupid ass out I applaud her again. No one should stay in a relationship like that it’s demeaning, toxic and down-right abusive. DonJuan, would you put up with that? I think not. You’re just a jerk with no balls! You just want to use and abuse!!!!
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6:33 pm
Right-on CYRUS!!!! I totally agree.
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6:39 pm
Patti
must have mé confused with someone Else. Never had male friends behind my husbands back. But nice you are taking your time responding.
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8:52 pm
Ok
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8:52 pm
Marina,
OK
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6:49 am
>>I didn’t actually end up dating them until a year later or two years later doesn’t matter<<
How do you define "dating"?
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7:24 pm
I am widowed for just about a year now and have a small child. I have many male friends. I am not dating anyone right now, (but would like to be). But, with some of my male friends there is just no chemistry. I suppose this is why we are just friends. With the men friends I am attracted to and they are attracted to me (as in one even told me so) — I think we just want different things and this is why they do not pursue me in a dating sense?
It is wonderful to have male and female friends — especially with widowed men with children as they understand me and it’s so comforting.
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12:32 am
Hi David,
i am new to this blog. I heard of you from Rori. i really need to respond to this post because sometimes i get myself into trouble when i am attracted to a man where he’s just “texting” “not sure” how he feels about me, or completely clueless. I started to believe, that, when a man is attracted to a woman, he would pursue, why wouldn’t he?? If a man likes you, he’ll declare that to the world, just like you said the other post.
why do you think about my experience. i need some advice from a man’s perspective. thanks for the great post.
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