I do agree w/ the insecurity comments here…Everyone has them…Absolutely everyone…What’s that saying? Ask out 10 girls & you’ll get at least 1 yes…something like that…

I talk to guy friends who will admit to me that they’re not the kind of guys to approach women in fear of rejection, nor do they have the mojo…They’re too scared to, so they resort to internet dating…I think this only makes public interaction even less…

We’re not mindreaders, but yet we read each other’s minds…we’ll say, “Oh he/she would never be interested in me” How do you know? We’re so busy reading minds, being insecure, we’re wasting the night away…I think as you get older, you’ve gotten so many battle scars, you’re tough enough to walk up to someone or at least be able to make conversation w/out looking like a scared rabbit…Women & men aren’t that far off in that aspect…instead of going home & saying-”I wish I had the backbone to talk to him/her”- Just do it…What’s the worst that could happen, you don’t end up w/ that person?

Anyway, thanks in advance for filling me in…From what I’m reading, these guys sound scared witless…it’s too bad…it doesn’t have to be that way

I see the point you’re trying to make, didn’t have the impression you were saying not to look at a woman’s feelings at all, just that you WAY under-emphasized it. Your boys will pick up on whatever’s most quickly tangible - which won’t be quick references to reading the woman’s reaction and adjusting to her pacing.

I’m sure you personally would pick up on the cues and react accordingly, but most of your ‘disciples’ are not going to pick up on the importance of really REALLY seeing the woman as a person. They’re so focused on their own insecurities that it’s not immediately obvious to them how much they’ll benefit from being open to the idea that a woman might just not be able to switch gears into interacting w/ him when he approaches her with interests of his own in the foreground. At least amplifying the awkwardness is staying in his own discomfort. Developing smooth moves before self-soothing skills is the ultimate recipe for provoking the “ugh” factor. I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but communication is what gets understood, not what one meant to say.

The focus of much of the advising here seems to be on the guys’ fear. We all know how that ends up. Most guys starting out trying to learn from you are NOT going to have the skills to simulataneously regain balance AND really truly be aware of the woman’s emotional response. Nobody can create a feeling that something wasn’t that big a deal. It is what it is. Better a guy learns self-regulation (like your neediness-awareness exercise) than rules for what to say or not say. The latter, as you know, is just cosmetic.

Guys who are nervous but gave it a shot will always get the time of day from me and from most women I know. Guys who do anything remotely resembling steamrolling get scorn and an increasingly distant view of the woman’s backside. I’m not proud of that, since these guys are probably the most insecure and wounded of all. But come on. We’re working our jobs and changing our own tires and often those of strangers and we’re picking up the check and and and, so it’s a bit much to expect we also fake patience for faked confidence of some really insecure guy’s desperate plea for attention and affirmation. Please. The frenetic way in which most guys are going to carry out your advice is just more than most women care to shoulder. Have the cojones to just admit awkwardness and dare to connect human to human.

Last night, one sweet young thing stammered quite a bit and kept trying to correct whatever he said, digging himself in ever deeper, but he’d LISTENED to me vent my frustration with one of his country’s soccer players, so he could do no wrong. Not giving him my name or number wasn’t rejection, it was _my_ insecurity. I’m in great shape and he seemed more mature than do many locals my age, but his boss spilled (in the local language) that he’s more than a decade my junior. As I was leaving, I told the boss that I was simply putting temptation behind me and to reassure the kid I found him absolutely adorable. His “faux pas” weren’t a factor at all. And I’m kicking myself for doing the right thing, b/c I’d *heart* hanging out with him and watching his country’s games from this tournament, doing some 20-20 hindsight armchair coaching.

See? Even if a guy thinks he’s screwed up, the woman might be regretting she didn’t exchange numbers. That kind of attention is something he’d never get had he steamrolled the interaction into the result he viewed as success.

You gave really some good insights.

Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to say that you should continue as if nothing happened WITHOUT paying attention to how she responds emotionally.

If you re-read what I read, you DO have to acknowledge her emotions. What I meant with what I wrote is that you should not necessarily amplify the awkwardness.

Sometimes, guys approach, they make small mistakes, and they start apologizing over and over and over again for something very insignificant. That is just awful b/c they are bringing attention to and blowing up something small that wasn’t a big deal in the first place.

From the woman’s perspective, when the guy does that, it changes her perception of his initial “coolness” factor to… “ugh…(?)”

Sometimes, by “steamrolling” as you call it (but still paying attention to her emotional responses), you create the “it wasn’t that big of a deal” feeling and at times, it’s just better b/c the woman might just forget it ever happened in the first place, especially when she realizes that you ARE charming after all ;p

Khiem’s questions about your signals, approach and timing are insightful. Not only are men afraid to approach women, but women generally have fundamental fear about being approached by men. Even - maybe especially! - confident, strong women. I say especially b/c we don’t attract protective attention from men in general.

So please don’t turn David’s examples and suggestions into scripts to try out. Scripts will bomb; focus more on what he says about being in the moment, on having fun, on being tuned in to the woman’s sensations.

If you haven’t gotten strong receptive signals from the woman, I disagree with Khiem’s tip to “continue your conversation as if nothing happened.” iSteamrolling ahead with your script comes off as ignoring her sensations, even if you apologize. This will pretty much ruin your chances of a raincheck on connecting.

Chances are, the woman you rate a “real bitch who is just not interested” is actually a nice person you’ve managed to A) approach abruptly at a bad time and B) give the impression that you’re fixated on carrying out your own program and she can perform like a trained seal or get “fired.”

When someone approaches me expecting me to immediately become part of his or her happy! scripted story, I don’t feel intrigued, I don’t see any offer of fun; I feel burdened. Most women =hate= being cornered into looking, acting, feeling like cold, cruel people. If you slow down a bit and notice how women are doing, you’ll win more points than any joke routine or teasing (esp. insulting, as other ‘gurus’ recommend) will ever score you.

Very few women take pleasure in cutting up worms just to see them squirm; even fewer want to squish men’s guts. Most of what seems like cruelty to you is expression of the woman’s fear. My regrets to those who’ve encountered the exceptions.

A few times, younger men have immediately responded to my stunned or annoyed reaction to their chat-up by stuttering and saying they don’t know how to talk to women and didn’t mean to be a jerk, or that they suddenly felt nervous and tripped over their tongues. It seemed authentic (please don’t go out setting THIS up as a script) and I laughed and made a few minutes to ask them what they were trying, encourage them a bit etc. It’s like what David suggests in “surrendering” in uncomfortable situations. If you take responsibility and don’t seem needy, women’s rescue instinct kicks in.

Older men seem to respond with insults, often thinly veiled as helpful advice involving the likelihood of me dying alone. Another common reaction is admonishment for “fear.” Maybe David could provide responses to _that_ that would defuse the situation and keep the woman from coming off as a b@ll buster. The other day - and here I’m providing a counter-example to my claim that women don’t cut up worms for fun - I responded to a steamroller’s suggestion I was “afraid” by saying yes, I was very afraid - afraid of being bored to death. He hit the roof. Turned out it was the owner of the posh little bar, so his reaction - which went on for 20 minutes and included vulgar insults and character defamation punishable under local law - was anything but boring to the regular patrons.

I’ll butcher it a little here:
They talked about people having three styles, each associated with a different pattern of brainwaves, (I think alpha, beta, and gamma); only the order/pairs differs from person to person. The three styles were audio(verbal), visual(aesthetics & written communication), and Kinesthetic (touch and motion).

One will be primary for most interactions; one is very sensitive and is reserved for going deep within; the other is a bridge in the middle.

It’s possible that the telephone is more intimate for him than you…

Just a possibility…

-D

Some men will not carry a longer conversation in the beginning of dating. There are are many reasons, one could be that some just don’t know what to say, and fear of coming across as awkward on the phone.

Too me you come across little bit needy for his attention, which you may not realize.

To make any relationship happen it has to be 50/50. if you try more than him to make it work….he will get all the power and not respect you for your time.

Take it slow and enjoy the ride:))

Thanks
D